While conducting research for my dissertation some of the anatomical characteristics I looked at involved my test subjets’ tooth structure. Specifically, I documented how straight the upper and lower teeth were in each player and whether the player had missing teeth or gaps between the front teeth. I then looked at whether these specific features would make accurate predictors for a player’s embouchure type. It turned out they don’t, at least not the particular players I looked at.
While reviewing the literature for my paper I did come across a few references to tooth structure and brass embouchures. Maurice Porter’s 1967 book, The Embouchure hypothesizes that a player’s “embouchure potential” is, in part, determined by the player’s dental structure, but his text is light on the details of his methodology and exactly how this is supposed to work. Lacey Powell wrote that a brass player should have “four good, long, and even teeth” in his 1982 article in The Instrumentalist titled The Embouchure Speaks. There are many sources that also mention how a player’s teeth affects the embouchure, but mostly references to finding a comfortable spot on the lips to place the mouthpiece so that a sharp edge or protruding tooth doesn’t dig into the lips.
There are also all the stories and brass playing urban legends that talk about a particular player who fell down a flight of stairs and chipped a tooth only to discover an extra octave or two in range. A variation is that a famous high note player had a gap between his teeth fix and lost some of his range. I even personally know a trumpet player who admitted to filing his front teeth in order to make them shorter so they wouldn’t “get in the way.” I’ve heard from some credible sources that there is a grain of truth to some of these stories, but there are also many weaker players with the same dental structure and things like this aren’t a cure-all.
Recently I’ve learned a bit about another pedagogue who speculated that there was an “ideal” tooth structure for brass players, trombonist Matty Shiner. Shiner doesn’t appear to have published his research in any scholarly or medical journals (at least I couldn’t find anything), but I have been learning a bit more about Shiner’s ideas in a Trombone Forum topic and also in an interview he gave. Shiner stated:
If you notice your better players, nobody seems to have teeth like this (demonstrating, he shows an inverted point with his hands) or laterals sticking out like this. The teeth are like a bridge on a violin. There’s a certain curvature and the height has to be right. When a violinist takes an instrument for a new bridge, they measure it down to the thousandths of an inch. It has to be just right. And you have a notch for each string. Now suppose I took a knife and made the bridge a little shorter, that would be like somebody with a closed bite. If I made that bridge a half or quarter of an inch too high, it would be like somebody who has an overbite. There would be a lot of distance between the teeth, then all of the pressure is on the upper lip. It has to be pretty close.
While I do like to use the embouchure is the “string” and the air is the “bow” analogy for getting certain playing sensations across to students at times, I don’t really think the lips are really perfectly analogous in this situation and I’m not sure I agree with Shiner here. Also, I wondered in the Trombone Forum topic how he actually conducted his research and if he applied some proper controls. I’ve mentioned a number of times here how I fooled myself into thinking I was accurately guessing my dissertation subjects’ embouchure types before even watching them play, so I know how easy it is to fall victim to confirmation bias.
Another thing that occurs to me is how many individuals in general have an inverted V in their front teeth to start with. It could very well be that the reason there aren’t many great brass players with this tooth structure Shiner felt was less than ideal is simply because this tooth structure is simply rare to begin with. Particularly these days, where orthodontic care is very common.
Glancing through the photographs I took to document my test subjects’ upper teeth show a lot of variation, but only one that might be said to have an inverted point described in Shiner’s above quote. This individual is a professional trombonist who at the time listed an Eb an octave and a 3rd above middle C as his highest consistent note and an Ab 3 octaves below middle C as his lowest consistent note. He self reported his lower register as a strength and other playing characteristics, such as upper register, flexibility, loud and soft playing, tone quality, and endurance as being average for his level of experience. I have photographs of him playing pitches ranging from pedal Bb to F above “high” Bb, so his range does encompass what is considered necessary for most professional playing.
One subject doesn’t disprove Shiner’s entire hypothesis, but I am skeptical. Poking around I’ve found a few dentists and orthodontists who advertise that they will help patients find an optimal jaw position or tooth structure, but none cite any research that show what that is. Nor have I been able to find anything in the academic literature that I would consider soundly conducted. I think in this case it’s best to take these opinions with a grain of salt and learn to work with your natural anatomy, rather than search for expensive dental reconstruction that may or may not be helpful in the longer term.
Thank you for your insights. I was the individual who started that thread you mentioned in The Trombone Forum. I have been away from my trombone for over 40 years. Back then in the Pittsburgh, PA area, it was very common for students to have their teeth “fixed” ala Shiner’s specs. I started that thread recently because I wanted to find out if this topic had been proven and settled in the 40 years of my absence. I appreciate your observations and insights on this topic. You have boosted my confidence that NOTHING is more important than quality training.
Regards,
Charles Brown
In the late 70’s Eddie Shiner, Matty’s brother and The late great Patsy Oliver suggested I go to a dentist in McKeesport, Pa. Dr. Gordon.
Dr. Gordon arranged my teeth exactly how you explained in your article.
After my first practice I increased my range from an E above high C to a double high C. I also experienced more longevity for my chops.
2 months ago my front tooth chipped. After speaking with my current dentist he decided to grind down the front teeth and cap them and try to duplicate what was there.
Bad Move. I’ve been struggling to play above an A above the staff for a month.
Dr. Gordon, Eddie, Matty and Patsy are gone. So is my embachure.
I play with a local Pittsburgh Funk band and have lowered an octave on most parts above the C now.
Teeth Matter. Do not let anyone tell you different.
I’ve been playing for over 50 years and at high level since I studied at Duquesne U. with these brass greats.
Ron LoVerde
Thanks for your note, Ron. I’m sorry to hear about the difficulties you’ve had.
Of course teeth matter. When your teeth shift (common for adolescents at any time, but even adult teeth change over time) your embouchure needs to adjust. When your teeth are shifted suddenly adjustments need to happen faster and can be difficult to make. Sometimes there are immediate benefits to sudden teeth shifting (as seemed to be your case when you had your teeth arranged on purpose). Other times they can have the opposite effect.
Regardless, the research that has been done on the precise role that teeth contribute to a functioning embouchure is very preliminary and largely anecdotal and not reliable. The only honest way to look at this topic now is to acknowledge that we really don’t know how teeth structure affects brass embouchures and that everything needs to be taken on a case by case basis.
What we can say with some certainty is that there are highly successful brass players with a wide range of tooth formations and structures. It’s pretty clear that folks can make these different anatomical differences work for them when motivated or guided properly. At this time I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to state there is an “ideal” tooth structure and I feel time and effort is better spent on learning how to work with an individual’s anatomy rather than getting non-essential dental work.
Dave
Hi! Thank you for this article, it’s intetesting!
I’m a horn player and I chipped a front tooth about 5 years ago. The chip is very tiny (like a grain of sand)and I didn’t think it was a big deal when it happened. The shape of that tooth isn’t so different than what it used to be, but it is much sharper.
Since then, I’ve gradually developed embouchure overuse syndrome. My lips become swollen the more I practice. Playing soft and high is a lot harder. My endurance is about 50% what it used to be. I’m only in my late 20s.
Looking under my upper lip, I noticed that I’m a lot more swollen on the left side (the side of the chipped tooth) than the right side, making my aperture very uneven, especially when playing soft.
I’m wondering if I should have a dentist polish that teeth. I’m a little scared about it because it seems like it made things worse for other people.
I’ve tried so many different things for overuse syndrome, I ask questions to so many players, and nothing so far has truly fixed it. I don’t know what to do anymore.
If you have any advice regarding my problem, I’d be happy to know what you think.
Thank you
The question of the space between the front teeth helping with the upper register has been on my mind lately. I’m in a unique position and need some advise. I’m 67 and I still play everyday. Last May one of my front teeth fell out, the root under a 40 year old cap fractured and I needed an implant. I was given a “snap-on-smile” and have gotten most of my playing back, except for my high range (above high D). Now the temporary tooth is going in next week and I am looking at options. I’m intrigued by the theory that a space between the front teeth helps with high range. It would be easy for me to do this, just have the new tooth adjusted without affecting my other teeth. Any suggestions/stories?
Jack, especially without seeing you play I would recommend against doing any dental work in the hopes that it would help your brass playing. It might help, but it’s just as likely that it would not. I would try to get the dentist to get your tooth to go as close as possible to what your natural tooth structure was like.
Good luck!
I am a trombone player and recently had 4 new crowns placed on my front teeth. This drastically affected my playing. At first I couldn’t make a decent sound at all. Although my dentist continues to work with me to “adjust” the teeth by shortening them and “thinning” the surface a bit, I am still not back to 100% of where I was. I believe I am at about 75% of where I was before the procedure. Of course, the more I take away form the crowns, the more fragile they will become. At this point I’m not sure whether I should continue to “whittle” away at the new crowns, or just spend the required time to adjust my embouchure to accommodate the new teeth. Any Thoughts?
Rick, I’d have to watch you play to be able to offer any advice. Hard to say what’s going to work best for you.
Teeth do matter. Aged 15 I picked up a cornet, playing brilliantly through my goofy teeth. But aged 19 I was fitted with tramline braces top and bottom, and teeth removed to pull the goofy ones back into place. I relearned to play on the waxed braces in a few months, developing a beautiful tone – the raised surfaces of the braces lifting the lips clear of the teeth, allowing them to vibrate more freely. But 2 years later they were removed, and I had to learn to play again, but never regained that tone – I even tried sticking strips of chewing gum to my teeth to replicate the braces! But this was impractical. At Uni I had an accident, smashing my 2 front upper teeth. They were dead, root filled and enamels glued on and back filled. They felt huge and cumbersome for playing, so got the dentist to file a millimetre off the length and smooth them. This was a little better. Sadly many years later (I’m 51), failing to wear the retainer from my orthodontistry for 30 years, means my teeth slowly migrated back to their original goofy locations, leaving big gaps where the teeth were removed by the orthodontist . My playing has been getting worse. The biggest problem is a canine on my right upper side on a mission to escape. The gum above it bulges out, causing the embouchure to leak on that side. I’m thinking of spending my lump sum from early retirement in a few years on a compete dental implant makeover….in Thailand to keep it cheap!
Now back to lip/teeth mechanics. If you think about pushing a mouthpiece onto goofy teeth, the pressure of the rim of the mouthpiece will push the lips against the slanted teeth – the lips will slide against the teeth and try to part. The embouchure muscles will compensate. But the goofy person will have to expend muscle energy just keeping the lips together, hence have less stamina and will struggle with high notes. Nice flat teeth make a great platform, with the mouthpiece pressure not forcing the lips apart. I’ve met a couple of cornet players who have inward slanting teeth, both exceptional players. Now the inward slant means the mouthpiece pressure is pushing the lips together, meaning far less effort is needed to maintain the embouchure, and pushing the mouthpiece harder actually mechanically helps get the high notes – the opposite is the case for the goofy player.
Now to lip alignment. Just look at people around you when they smile. Where does the gap naturally appear? For me, the only thing you see is my top teeth. Others will be more evenly balanced. It is intuitive to think that placing a mouthpiece onto an evenly balanced lip gap with both top and bottom teeth providing even support, would be mechanically better that the uneven surface of goofy overlapping teeth. So I believe it is not just the teeth alone that impact on a good embouchure, but the position of the lip gap relative to the teeth.
nearly two years ago-i had major dental work done-two implants-crowns and a bridge-cost was close to 60, 000 dollars-of which insurance pain only 500 bucks.as a trumpet player-who had been noted as a lead player-with a consistent range -up to double high c-thanks to carmine caruso-and roy stevens-POINT- after the dentist botched the work-i.e. three times i have had to have a different dentist-replace the implants that fell out-and a very painful abcess resulting from the incompetent first dentist- i still sound like i did the first time i picked up a horn at age 10 years.is there anything i can do to return to a decent sound? i do not care if i ever go higher than a consistent f or high g-maybe switch to just fluglehorn?try a different chop? i am 71 years old-so time is important-thank you in advance.
James, sorry to hear about your dental issues.
In order to help you I would need to be able to watch you play. Can you take video of your chops?
Dave
Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for your post. I am a trumpet player and have inverted V shape upper front teeth. My career almost ended because of that. I am wondering where can I find your dissertation. I will be very interested in reading it.
Best
Yanbin
Hi, Yanbin.
Sorry to hear about your troubles. My dissertation won’t really help you, it doesn’t directly deal with the inverted V shape Shiner considered. I also don’t agree with Shiner’s opinion that this teeth structure is even an issue. There’s no scientific evidence (at least that I’ve found) that suggests one way or another.
Tooth structure is extremely important for an embouchure, but there are other factors that go into it as well. Rather than worrying about what’s supposed to be optimal (which is not really understood anyway), I would concern yourself with how to better analyze your embouchure and learn how to work with, rather than against, your anatomical features.
My Embouchure 101 resource is not really designed for players to use for themselves, it’s written for teachers. But you might find something useful in there that will help.
Dave
Hi Dave:
Thank you very much for your reply. I was just curious about the stuff. I do think it matters less when the mouthpiece is bigger. For instance, the dental structure does not affect as much as trombone and tuba same as trumpet and horn players. I do know somebody understands a lot about the dental structure affecting trumpet playing. At least it has been proved on myself during my doctoral study. It is great to see some new ideas online though, thank you for this blog.
Best,
Yanbin
I had braces and was able to jam on trumpet n t-bone super sick. I chipped my 4th upper-tooth and I can’t hit ne thing over f on trumpet. Trombone is not affected. I’m gonna get it gold filled soon n hopefully I can jam again.
Hey Rob,
You are correct! I studied w/Patsy in the early 1980s at DU.
What an education!
Many trips to Dr. G in McKeesport.
Hi Dave –
Had some work done to my teeth and the dentists placed veneers in and they feel thick.
It cuts into my sound which leaves it almost nothing.
Can I have him thin the veneers down so it allows more vibration and I can get a better sound ?
I play trumpet and my range now sucks let alone the tone I have – your thoughts ??
Jim,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I would need to see you okay in order to help. Can you post video?
Dave,
I am a student of Eddie Shiner and had teeth work done in high school. In college, I broke my retainer and getting the teeth back to where they were originally positioned was an exercise in frustration. After capped teeth and different orthodontic techniques, I shifted to bonding materials and have been reasonably successful. Teeth structure, alignment and actual distance between the top teeth and bottom teeth when playing is very crucial. There are many aspects of teeth structure that impact playing. A reasonable curvature/high point aids in pivot and flexibility. Evenness of curvature between the top and bottom teeth aids smoothness of tone and width of vibrating area/aperture. Most trumpet players compensate in some way for the distance/bite not being right and these compensations make an easy analysis of issues much more difficult. Eddie Shiner once said that most trumpet players are compensating for the overbite/playing distance being too wide/big and I have found this to be true in most cases. But as a warning, making the distance too close can also be disastrous to a player being able to perform across the registers of the horn with any consistency.
In my research into embouchure development, I have found many differing philosophies which all address a specific approach/situation to remedying issues with dental limitations. The first step in working through all these approaches is to have a common understanding of how the lips create a sound. The vibration of the lips is created by the air being blown through closed lips which forces the lips to vibrate. The playing aperture is created by the air not for the air to blow through. Another understanding is knowing how muscles work. When you flex a muscle, it contracts (gets shorter). When you flex your lips, the lip muscle contracts and pulls flush against the teeth. If the overbite (some dentists call it over-jet) is too big, the lips actually pull apart and this limits range, flexibility, tone and endurance and causes the over use of mouthpiece pressure. This is the point where the compensation begins. Some trumpet players roll the bottom lip out or in, purse the lips into more of a pucker, or inflate the area around the lips. All these adjustments are done in an attempt to close the opening and create a usable embouchure. There are many articles and books on how different teachers create work-arounds for dental limitations and I can’t go into all the different methods in a forum like this one.
Currently, I have bonding on both my upper and lower teeth to create a matched pair of surfaces and I have the ability to adjust either surface (or both) to establish a clear and playable embouchure. The process took a lot of time and I have had reasonable success in working with other trumpet players who have had issues. While I have found many variables that impact whether a person’s teeth structure works or doesn’t work, Eddie and Matty Shiner’s basic approach does solve a lot of problems for most players.
I am interested in taking the discussion further if people are interested.
Hi, Chuck.
Thanks for stopping by. I have a post scheduled for tomorrow (1/1/20) that describes my current thinking on the Shiner brothers’ hypothesis. The link to that blog post should show up in a comment here when it’s posted.
What you are calling “compensation” for “dental limitations” other folks are calling “correct technique.” It’s just as valid to suggest that the embouchure characteristics Shiner advised is compensation for not having the dental structure of those other players. There are really excellent brass players who don’t have Shiner’s ideal dental structure. How do we determine it’s in spite of their teeth and the way they play is “compensation?”
Tell me more about your research? I haven’t found anything published. Can you forward me an article or paper that discusses your research?
How did you get IRB approval to recommend a dental procedure?
Thanks,
Dave
Any suggestions for a trombone player who had to have the entire top set removed?
Maybe I could have some suggestions, but it would still require me to watch you play to see what’s working.
Following a single dental implant, I find that even moderate upper register (above the staff) and higher volume/velocity playing now are inhibited by what I would describe as a sinus air leak … detrimental to both sound production and “internally” as the sensation of the leak is both hugely distracting and eventually, a bit painful – rather like the feeling when you’ve had a lingering rotten cold and the dripping leaves you raw. All that is just how I perceive and describe it.
The closest I can find in studies is by a clarinetist (Gibson) who wrote it up as “Palatal Air Leak (Stress Velopharyngeal Insufficiency)” – perhaps something others are familiar with. It seems to fit match many of the limitations and sensations of the SVI (worse when tired), but until the implant, I’d never experienced any of it, and the leaking air (sinus / palate) is clearly on the same side as the implant.
Dale,
Sorry to hear about your issues.
First, I’m not a medical professional. The only advice I can offer here is to see your doctor.
My wife is a speech therapist and is a familiar with velopharyngeal insufficiency. She says it’s most common when there is a neurological disorder or injury. The nerves that innervate your teeth and velum/soft pallet are different, so she feels it’s not likely that your tooth implant and air leak are directly related.
All that said, you should make an appointment with your doctor and get it checked out.
Dave
Really interesting thread. Back in the 80’s I played trombone in dance bands and wherever I could get a gig. I also played rugby and had my teeth capped. I persevered but gave up. I was never the same nor could I get the tone bac never mind high notes. Then the caps fell off. I had them replaced with the warning that continued pressure would cause the same again. So I swapped to guitar. Recently health has caused problems with the hands. So I got the old bone out and wander if it is possible to play again. Seeing the dentist in a few weeks to get an opinion, but this thread is really encouraging especially if I keep off the high notes. Thank you.
Dave how do we take a picture of us playing and where do we send the video, I had a front tooth break ,the put a bridge in place until it heals in 3 months then a post..with the loose tooth I thought I did ok ,but the solid bridge I can hardly blow a note.
Frustrating big time.
Berl. Howell
California thank you
Hi, Berl.
Sorry to hear about your dental issues.
A photo isn’t going to be very helpful, but a video can offer some insights sometimes. Look at what I wrote here about what I need to see:
https://wilktone.com/?p=4580
Post the video on YouTube or elsewhere and email me the link to it. You can email me here:
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=186
Sometimes I can spot things this way that will be helpful. Often it is more complicated and would require a lesson (or several) to really fix completely. I do teach video lessons these days. I also recommend my teacher, Doug Elliott.
Dave