Category: Low Placement Type

Embouchure Question: Top Lip Slipping Out Of Mouthpiece

~ wilktone ~ 3 Comments

Hank stopped by to ask a question I’ve also had to personally deal with.

I’ve found that the only way I can get the sensation of “embouchure motion“, i.e. the MP/embouchure/jaw `tracking’ along the teeth foundation either for ascending or descending, is on a so-called `dry’ set up.  If I try a `wet’ set up the MP tends to slip down onto the red part of top lip in stead of the whole assembly moving/tracking. Thanks, Comments?

This is actually a pretty common issue for some players, particularly those who belong to the Low Placement embouchure type, but also sometimes Medium High Placement players as well.  These types both have an embouchure motion to pull the mouthpiece and lips together down to ascend.  When the lips feel slippery, sometimes the mouthpiece placement will slide on the lips to a lower placement like Hank describes.

First of all, there’s nothing inherently wrong with placing the mouthpiece so the rim sits on the red of the upper lips, in spite of what many teachers and players believe.  My own embouchure, shown at the right, has the rim right on the red of my upper lip.  This just happens to be where it works best for me, and is a quite a bit lower than most Low Placement embouchure types I’ve seen.  Perhaps the reason your mouthpiece wants to slide down there is because that’s where it works best.  Try it out and see what happens.  But without watching you play in person, that’s just a wild guess.  Caveat emptor.

I did mention above that I’ve dealt with this issue myself, though.  As you can note from the photo, if my top lip starts to slide up it goes right off the rim, so I have to be careful.  I’ve tried a few different things, all of which help to a certain degree.  Here they are, in no particular order.

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Embouchure Questions: Mouthpiece Pressure and Lip Ratio

~ wilktone ~ 23 Comments

Yes, I know it’s been a while since I’ve posted.  Now that the semester is finally over and grades have been done I plan to get back to some regular updates, starting with another question from the internet.  Kevin writes:

Hi my name is Kevin and iv’e been playing trombone for 5 years now. I am currently a junior in high school. Ever since i started playing, i have always used more mouthpiece pressure than one would normal use. Every time i finish practicing, i always get the “pressure ring” round my lips. I really don’t know how i can break this bad habit.

First, don’t worry about a red mark where you place the mouthpiece, it doesn’t mean anything.  Players with fairer skin will get more of a red mark.  Some players just get it more than others.  It’s certainly not an accurate judge of mouthpiece pressure.

Speaking of mouthpiece pressure, I don’t know for sure that you’re using too much pressure or not.   Continue reading “Embouchure Questions: Mouthpiece Pressure and Lip Ratio” →

Guess the Embouchure Type – Cat Anderson

~ wilktone ~ 7 Comments

I’ve been looking for some video footage of Cat Anderson that shows a good look at his embouchure for a long time.  I’ve found one that’s pretty good, but unfortunately it doesn’t show him changing register enough to get a good look at his embouchure motion.  Still, if you know what to look for you might be able to make a pretty good guess as to what embouchure type Cat Anderson belonged to.  Take a look and see what you think.

The best look at his chops happens around 1:13 into the video, and he’s even playing on a plastic transparent mouthpiece (although we really don’t get a great look at his lips inside).  Even with his mustache making it a little hard to see his ratio of upper to lower lip, it looks like Anderson has much more lower lip inside the cup.  My best guess is he’s a Low Placement embouchure type.

I’ve heard that Donald Reinhardt typed Cat Anderson, although I don’t know if he got to look at him up close and in person or if he just watched carefully from a distance.  Rumor has it that Anderson belonged to a very rare variation of the upstream embouchure performer, one who’s embouchure motion is the reverse of the vast majority of Low Placement types.  Instead of pulling his lips and mouthpiece down to ascend, Anderson supposedly pushed up.  This is the same embouchure motion that the Very High Placement embouchure type uses, but Anderson doesn’t look at all like that embouchure type.

Can you see his embouchure motion in the video?  Does it look reversed for the Low Placement type to you?

Guess the Embouchure Type – Italian Hornist Plays Jobim

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It’s been a while since I’ve done a “Guess the Embouchure Type” post.  Bruce Hembd, from the excellent Horn Matters blog, spotted this one and sent this link, knowing that I like to look at embouchures.  Since my Italian is very bad, I’m not certain of this horn player’s name, but I recognize the tune he’s playing as Antonio Carlos Jobim’s composition Corcavado.  Take a look and see if you can spot this horn player’s embouchure type. 

Almost definitely a Low Placement type.  His placement looks sort of like mine does, except he has what looks like the more typical jaw position and horn angle of Low Placement types.  His teeth look more or less aligned and the horn angle is fairly straight out (don’t be fooled by his downward tilted head through much of the video).

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Embouchure Question

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Here’s another embouchure question I’ll take a stab at.

I’ve watched all your videos in the last 2 days and have been studying Reinhardt with the encyclopedia for quite awhile and I appreciate your use of “embouchure motion” rather than pivot. My embouchure is upstream, off to the L side, angle almost straight out. I had been using side movement: R and up for low reg. and L and down for higher reg. In the ency. Reinhardt says it is best no matter what type to put pressure on lower lip but in listening to your videos you say that with a low placement upstream emb. more vibration happens with the lower lip and I seemed to have confirmed this today. Putting more pressure on top for low notes and then more pressure on bottom lip for high notes. This seems to free up vibrations and the side mvt. is not so extreme. Is this correct for low placement upstreamer?

What you’re describing here is both normal for almost all players, regardless of embouchure type, yet incredibly personal to each individual player.  This is a complex topic and from the outset I can’t say without watching you play whether or not what you’ve described above is actually correct for you.  Instead, I’ll try to explain some of the relationships I’ve learned about between the embouchure motion and horn angles.

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Embouchure Questions

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I’ll be getting around to answering some of the emailed embouchure questions starting today, taking them in the order I’ve gotten them.  Here’s today’s.

I’m a high school trombone player and I’ve been reading a lot of your articles on embouchures and have decided I’m probably one of the Type IVs (that’s how I’ve been playing for the last few years at least). However, when I play in the upper register, my lower lip seems to hide behind the upper lip and looks very similar to the “jelly roll” embouchure type, except that the mouthpiece placement is low as opposed to high. Is this okay or would you recommend trying to change that (or do you think I would actually be a standard type III)?

Since I haven’t seen you play, I don’t know if you’re typing yourself accurately.  First of all, I prefer to not use Donald Reinhardt’s embouchure nomenclature, simply because it gets confusing for people who are unfamiliar with it. Instead of Type IV I use Low Placement embouchure type and the Type III I use Medium High Placement type.  These types were coined by Doug Elliott, a former student of Reinhardt’s, and I feel better help communicating how brass embouchures actually function.

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Guess the Embouchure Type – Wycliffe Gordon and Wynton Marsalis

~ wilktone ~ 4 Comments

It’s been a while since I’ve done a “Guess the Embouchure Type” post and this video offers a closeup look at two great players, trombonist Wycliffe Gordon and trumpet player Wynton Marsalis.  Take a look at their embouchures and see if you can guess which embouchure type they have.

VIDEO NO LONGER AVAILABLE

It’s not easy to tell based on what you can see if this video, but if you know what to look for you might be able to make an educated guess. Since I’ve seen several other good videos of Wynton Marsalis playing up close (and already pointed his embouchure type out in a video here), it seems pretty clear that he has a Low Placement embouchure type.

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Embouchure Question

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I got a message from a horn student who watched one of my YouTube videos showing Low Placement type embouchures.  He writes:

My F horn teacher won’t let me play this way. Its the easiest way for me but he says “I’ll get great and then I’ll hit a wall and never get better”.

I know my instructor knows what’s best but he said that my embouchure is wrong and I can’t play that way.  And then I find out through this video that you can play with more lower lip.

What do you suggest?

This is a tough call, but it is unfortunately a fairly common issue that players with upstream/Low Placement type embouchures run into.  In situations like this, there are basically four things you can try.

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Embouchure Questions – Lower Register For Low Placement Type

~ wilktone ~ 1 Comment

I’ve recently gotten a couple of very similar questions about the Low Placement embouchure type from my YouTube video Five Myths About Brass Embouchures.  “albrt2890” asks:

I have a student (f horn) who plays with a large amount of lower lip however when he descends into the lower register of the horn he changes his mouthpiece position so that he has more upper lip in the mouthpiece. Would it benefit him to try to play horn with the “Standard” embouchure through all ranges?

“dreadss64” similarly asks:

i use that same embouchure when i play my trumpet! But when i play mello i have to change it.its really hard diging out those low notes. My brass teacher said my trumpet embouchure is bad and that i need to change it. Do you agree?

First of all, without being able to watch a student play in person I can’t say for whether or not that player’s embouchure type is correct.  That said, in virtually every case I’ve seen where a player was playing naturally with an upstream embouchure type (meaning, more lower lip inside the mouthpiece), this was the correct type for the player.  There is something about the combination of physical characteristics that makes it possible for upstream players to play (sort of) by moving their mouthpiece placement higher on the lips and making their embouchure downstream.  However, players who are properly one of the two downstream embouchure types can’t seem to make an upstream embouchure work at all.  Along with the normal rarity of upstream embouchure types (maybe 15% of brass players, maybe even less) this makes many downstream teachers assume that an upstream embouchure is incorrect and one of the first things they do is try to “fix” their upstream students by moving their mouthpiece placement up to a downstream placement.  This is usually the last thing they want to do.

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Guess the Embouchure Type – Dick Nash

~ wilktone ~ 4 Comments

Another installment of “Guess the Embouchure Type” today.  This time I’m going to take a close look at the embouchure of the great trombonist Dick Nash.  Nash is sort of a trombonist’s trombonist.  Many fans may not know his name, but they may have heard his playing on countless soundtrack recordings and albums by artists like Stan Kenton, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, and many more.  Take a look at the video below.  Around 2:35 into the video we get a good closeup look at his chops.

Nash has a very low mouthpiece placement.  It’s low enough that you don’t really need to look at him play into a transparent mouthpiece to see that he has an upstream embouchure.  While he doesn’t change registers abruptly enough to get a close look at his embouchure motion, it’s pretty obvious that his embouchure is an example of the Low Placement type.

If I recall correctly, Nash was one of the players photographed in the hard to find book by Bill Spilka called Chops.  Does anyone know of other videos or photos that show a close look at Nash’s embouchure?  Any other players that you’re curious about with good videos or photographs of their embouchure?  If so, leave your suggestion and links below and I’ll use them for my next installment of “Guess the Embouchure Type.”